After reading all the books, trying all kinds of things...guess what. It boils down to eat less, exercise more. Bottomline it doesnt matter if the calories come from protein, fat or carbs, if you eat too many you won't lose weight.
Also I decided to eat full fat yogurt, and other dairy products and frankly I think its the way to go. I am more satisfied with less and the studies I have read indicate this fat is NOT bad for you. (Though I am sure someone out there will find a contradicting study)
Naturally for health you want to eat healthy food, but if I get a craving I satisfy it and move on.
I am eating more whole foods, less processed, like the French in some ways.
It really feels good not to count calories, grams or figure out ratios..just moderation.

Yes, to lose weight you need to eat less and exercise more. And, you are right, it doesn't matter where the calories come from.

But...it does matter where the calories come from if you are also interested in eating for nutrition, being healthy and to have less body fat. Even thin people can have a very high percentage of body fat.

The bottom line: The best way to lose weight is to eat less with a balanced diet of protein, carbs and fat and to get more exercise and activity in your life.

I've been thin before. This time I want to be healthy and fit.

"naturally for health you want to eat healthy food"

Eli -

You nailed it. Good work.

Fitbabe -

Okay, I'm going to argue with you a little here, but before I start, I'm like to say that if you've found something you're happy with, go for it. You certainly do a lot of research, so I don't want to get in the way of what works for you. I see your point. Unprocessed foods are the best. Staying away from junk food is a great philosophy.

However, I'm not a counter of calories, but balance is sooooooooooo important. You're not going to have fuel without carbs and fat and you're not going to have the tools to rebuild without protein. You need all three.

Also, I question your faith in whole milk. I'd really like to see these studies. The questionable benefits of dairy aside, the fat in whole milk in mostly saturated fat. I don't know of a sane person alive who would tell you saturated fat is "good fat" -- it's just, plain bad for your heart! One cup of whole milk has 5.07g of saturated fat (8.15g overall) -- that's slightly more saturated fat than a Snickers bar!

I have to admit, I admire your gusto. You've made a bold statement -- really opened up the floor for debate. (That's another thing the French do well) -- you wouldn't happen to have any Gallic ancestry, would you?

Hi there. It's interesting, because when my husband came home from school yesterday, he gave me some info on saturated fat that blew my mind. By the way, he goes ot the Swedish Institute here in NYC, to become a licensed massage therapist, and he is graduating in December.

All right, I am not sure exactly who the person is that told him what I am about to tell you, but she is a professional, and I think maybe even a licensed nutritionist. She said that there are different types of saturated fats, and it depends on the chain of saturated fats to determine which ones are beneficial and which ones are hazardous especially in larger quantities. Apparently, according to her, the saturated fat in tropical oils (from plants like coconut, palm, etc.) is "good" saturated fat, and actually better than using vegetable oil. She said that the saturated fat that comes from animals, like dairy products and meat fat, is the hazardous one, and the one which we should avoid. I am not sure where she gets her information, but I was amazed by this, and am still skeptical about it. I mean, I am definitely never going to give up eating olive oil with vinegar as my number one salad dressing choice anyway, because I love the taste and I do know it is healthy, and better for me than bottled dressing. But, I still found this interesting. Is there any study that anyone knows of that says this is true?

Bottom line, even if this woman was accurate, animal fat is not good for us. However, fat does keep us fuller for longer, and it is good to have an adequate amount. But that is the key...adequate, not most of our calories from fat. I have read that using lowfat dairy products instead of fat-free will keep you fuller, but nothing about whole milk products. I use lowfat yogurt, and my husband drinks 1% milk (I only drink soy milk), but never whole milk. I also never use real butter. Soy cheese is also something I like, in moderation.

-Bonnie

I am 5'6, 125 pounds. I work out every day either doing aerobics or free weights. I use to weigh 115-120 pounds and I was happy. Now I realize that I haven't gained a whole lot of weight but I am not happy woth myself. My clothes are tight snd I just feel fat. I am told that some of it is muscle but I really try and watch what I eat and eat less and I do work out...why can't I lose those few pounds that I want to lose???

Knew I would open myself up for debate with my comments.
But here are the facts. I ate a lofat diet (about 14%) fat for a long time. I did not lose weight in fact I gained. I was eating too many calories.
Now I am eating whole yogurt (moderate portion 4ounces is a serving) and I am eating more of other fats, and I have lost weight.
Its very obvious to me its not fat that makes you fat its total calories. In fact Americans eat a relatively low fat diet compared to other nations and keep getting fatter.
Now I did not say not to eat a balance. If you eat in moderation you will naturally have a balance..you just dont have to count it out.
Lets look at the french they eat quite a bit of fat and MON DIEU! They are slim as a culture.
They are not buying fat free yogurt at the grocery store (in fact its hard to find in France)
They are buying full fat items and eating them moderately. And they are not counting their calories or their ratios of fat to protein to carbs..(not that I am saying thats bad if you want to do it)
A great book on the topic of why we are so fat as a nation is THE FAT OF THE LAND by M. Fumento.
I read it years ago..wish I had paid attention. I just reread it and its excellent.

Here is a quote from the FAT FALLACY by Dr. William Clower, " countries with exceptional longevity also enjoy the highest consumption of olive oil. FAT-FREE foods in these countries are scarce. You just cant fine them. We squirm in our seats over these facts dismissing their healthy thin lives because we can't explain them using our ideas.....

The French eat plenty of fat but dont get fat. Americans eat lowfat get fattr and dont know why. ...Our ballistic avoidance of fats causes people to be hungry all the time and eat the incredible volumes of food we're so famous for...'in France' with 50 and 60 percent fat and cheeses and creams you dont have to eat alot to be satisfied. This is the key to cutting down the volume on our portion sizes and instilling healthy sustainable weight loss.

In Earl Mindells Diet Bible he says "Saturated fat is not bad for you. Satruated fats are easy to digest and you burn them up quickly and efficiently. Saturated fats are needed by the body to convert some of the EFA's into other important types of crucial fatty acids within the body....etc

Too much is unhealthy but when you are eating moderate portions its good.

Fitbabe -

You're right, portions are important. However, Americans eat a HUGE amount of fat compared to other countries, because they eat so much. They eat fast food, candy -- tons and tons.

I've been to and lived in several countries and, I have to tell you, we eat a lot of fat. The only country I can think of that has a higher fat percentage in their diet is Mongolia, because all they eat is yak.

The french eat lots of cheese, sure, but they also eat lots of fruits and veggies and lean meats. They eat fruit and salad religiously with every meal. They don't count calories because their culture has already created a balance diet.

Also, the french have access to and consume lots of low fat dairy -- maybe 30 years ago they didn't, but they do now. In fact, some French coffee snobs insist lowfat milk is the only way to drink coffee, because it brings out the flavour.

They aren't really a workout culture and they do lots of other things that don't go with having plenty of exercise. They don't eat breakfast and they smoke like chimneys.

I know this. I've lived there and my father is French.

They aren't an obese culture like America, because they don't overeat (as much), but they are a stout culture. Most forty-years-old french people have bodies that a forty-year-old Beachbody person would not be happy with. Not that they aren't healthy, they just aren't what you're looking for.

Also, you're completely breezing over the topic of saturated fats.

Once again, I like that you're formulating your own plan and you should do what you think is best, but I feel morally obligated to explain the other side of things. I hope you're not offended.

FA: Let me start by addressing the Low fat vs full fat issue (see below

Caroline: I tried to be very clear that portion sizes must be moderate NOT like here in the States. And yes for many folks that will involve some retraining for sure. No where did I say that the French diet would be applied to American sized portions. WHY does this nation continue to grasp at Weight Watching plans that are iffy..when all we have to do is look to other countries for the answer and get the diet mentality out of our heads.

FA: This is from the Fat of the Land..

Fat consumption as a percentage of calories by Nation.

Hungary 41.1
Findland 41
Belgium 40.3
Netherlands 38
New Zealand 38
Isreal 36.6
France 36.5
UK 35.3
Norway 34.9
US 33.7
Italy 33.4

(from Journal of the American Dietetic Association)

So here we have tons of Americans weighing tons of pounds..eating less fat than many other nations yet being the fattest of them all. Something is not working.

good thread.

after all, we are the land of "all you can eat".

my brother and i were in japan and we was a restaurant that had a sign for "all you care to eat." we laughed at the difference. there it's "all you care" to eat, but we say "all you can,". it's like we're issuing a challenge to eat as much as possible.

i can't imagine this doesn't, somehow, have something to do with texas.

Fitbabe -

Okay, so a little saturated fat is ok, but are you going to believe Earl Mindell or the American Heart Association? Saturated fats and trans-fats are the main dietary factors in raising blood cholesterol. Does Mindell address this in his low-carb diet book?

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about having a heart attack.

Cholesterol build-up in the arteries is caused by eating too much dietary cholesterol and saturated fat. This causes a heart attack. It's a fact, not a theory!

I think it's absolutely irresponsible of the people that write books saying "here's a great way to lose weight" without accounting for the other componants of good health.

you stated that
"So here we have tons of Americans weighing tons of pounds..eating less fat than many other nations yet being the fattest of them all."

Less of a % of TOTAL calories maybe (if you belive the numbers) but I'd say a substantially GREATER AMOUNT of fat as Americans probably have a higher caloric intake. A lot of fat is still a lot of fat, even if it is in amongst a ridiculously high amount of other foods.

just my 2c
Zoop

Caroline -

And don't forget the salad! The French love leafy greens with a little oil and vinegar with dinner.

On the full-fay issue....

Isn't it true that European food tends to be less processed (I'm British) ?

Processed cheese and milk here is processed out of all of the things that made it a good whole food, fatty acids being the main one that springs to mind. Ergo, it would be ok to eat full fat cheese/milk etc. IF it wasn't the BS stuff you get in supermarkets here....

Melanie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Advice Staff:
Fitbabe -

Okay, so a little saturated fat is ok, but are you going to believe Earl Mindell or the American Heart Association? Saturated fats and trans-fats are the main dietary factors in raising blood cholesterol. Does Mindell address this in his low-carb diet book?

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about having a heart attack.

Cholesterol build-up in the arteries is caused by eating too much dietary cholesterol and saturated fat. This causes a heart attack. It's a fact, not a theory!

I think it's absolutely irresponsible of the people that write books saying "here's a great way to lose weight" without accounting for the other componants of good health.

---

AS:

I would love to see the studies, which prove that saturated fats and trans fats are the main dietary factors in raising blood cholesterol. Ok, hold the trans fat studies, since I believe they are a key component in blood cholesterol. And the idea that cholesterol build-up is caused by eating too much dietary cholesterol and saturated fat seems antiquated. The studies I have read have not been able to make this connection convincingly. In fact, they seem to establish the opposite that the consumption of saturated fats and cholesterol lowers blood serum cholesterol. We could get into a debate about whether it lowers HDL or LDL but why bother.

Here is my take after watching medical science struggle with the issues surrounding arterial plaques for more than 20 years. The researchers don’t have any real idea about what constitutes a “perfect” diet to avoid heart and arterial issues. Every time they say eat more of this fat in preference to butter they end up retracting it, since they find the substitute is worse than the “cause”.

Anthropologically, it would make sense that tropical oils should be a component of a good diet. After all man evolved in a tropical or subtropical environment. The same can be said of saturated fats from animals – they were part of the evolutionary process. (Another thought – why do the Masai tribes have such low serum cholesterol and heart disease when the primary component of their diet is beef, dairy and beef blood?)

So, the medical field is in disarray on this area so what do we do? I eat all fats, except trans fats, in moderation. The fats in my diet total about 20-25% and I try to keep them balanced between the various types. The exception is trans fats, since they are proven killers.

I don’t believe fat in the American diet (again except trans fats) caused the fat epidemic. The cause is a diet rich in sugar, processed foods, low quality foods, and trans fats, and low in fiber. The French who are living so long may eat a significant amount of fat but they do not eat processed foods, junk foods, trans fats or low quality foods. They eat fresh seasonal produce and fruits, nuts, fresh meats (more specifically more of the organ meats that Americans don’t eat), and 3 or more glasses of alcohol each day, and the diet is also fairly low in grain product. Dessert may be pears stewed in red wine or with blue cheese, or a cheese plate with fresh fruit. It is never the crap we tend to eat.

Mark

I never said.."that country eats more fat than we do so all we have to do is eat more fat and we will be ok" Of course that is not the case! No where do I say that.

I said that eating a low fat diet DOES NOT appear to be the answer to our nations weight loss problem, because if you compare our fat intake to other countries we are not even near the top.
We are gaining weight despite eating a lowfat diet.

I am also NOT SAYING THAT EATING ALOT OF SATURATED FAT IS GOOD.

I am saying we are too afraid of eating saturated fat - any fat for that matter.
That is if we take our cue from a nation that is slimmer and has lower heart disease..like the French..a nation that does eat some saturated fat and other fats in moderation perhaps we can find our answer.

SO what I am saying is if we eat unprocessed foods as much as possible and if we eat the fat that naturally occurs in cheese and milk in moderate quantities..and the veggies and fruits etc..And we eat some fat..and stop being so afraid of fat...

And if we stop making fake fat free foods or taking out the fat that naturally occurs..and if we eat smaller portions..we will become slimmer.
We wont be looking for more grub because we are satisfied.

To be honest I dont know that I trust the American Heart Association or the diabetes association etc for good information ..I really dont.
Lets face it the diet plans they give out havent seemed to help anyone.
Maybe they make things worse.

I think many times political motivation underlies what we eat today. Look at all the cheap corn syrup in our food supply..is this there for our health. NO its there because of politics..Read Fatland by Critzer (sp) and see how this came about.

Remember when we were told to eat margarine..why margarine was sooo good for us and butter was so bad.
I mean here we have all these conflicting studies..and all these diets that dont work and diet centers that have repeat business cus most gained the weight back..
What is wrong with this picture? Why dont we just admit we are messed up when it comes to eating and our American society hasnt got a clue and follow a nation that seems to have it right?

BTW here is a something I read about marg and butter, from a reader of THE FAT FALLACY book ..
"I have comprised the following simple test. Simply take a knife and dip it into butter, do the same with another knife dipping it into margarine. Now run warm almost hot water over the knives, the result should be that the butter knife should come completely clean, but the margarine knife will require soap, I don't eat soap, so how could I possible get the margarine out of my system? Try this test and see if you don't come to the same conclusion."

It's always a little fun when I come across a thread where Fitbabe is posting her thoughts. You always stir things up a little bit! Weren't you the one who was questioning "Michi's Ladder" a few months ago and really got it going in a big way?

And there I was trying to defend a LOWER carb way of eating, getting crucified along with a few others!

Glad we're all here for the same end goal.

Betsy

Mark -

You're arguing against my point, yet you say "I eat all fats, except trans fats, in moderation. The fats in my diet total about 20-25% and I try to keep them balanced between the various types" which is the point I've been making all along!

Argh!

Look at my posts and the posts of the people who agree with me. We all say saturated fat is ok, in moderation. Fitbabe is recommending a diet to me that sounds a lot like 50% fat and that's no good. (She has since rescinded that sentiment, so that's sort of a done argument.)

Anthropologically, humans are omnivores, meaning they eat what they can find and it should all balance out. So, theoretically, we weren't engineered to have a continued intake of meat and diary, to have it make up a major part of our diet like this.

Also, out of curiousity, what's the average life expectancy of the Masai tribes?

Fitbabe - I never said margarine was good, so don't bother with that argument. The hot water test is rather facile, to be honest. The human body is much more complex than that!

Furthermore, if you really want to go that way, I don't have time to get into it now, but do a little research about dairy. It's not that great for you -- like refined flour, it's something that's been forced upon us by business.

As for not believing the American Heart Association, wow, okay. I'd be interested in hearing why you think a nonprofit devoted to saving lives isn't worth trusting. If you look at their work now, they're all about informing us about transfats -- so maybe they're wrong about that too, huh?

Anyway, it's an interesting debate. I'm sorry this is so rushed, I have to run. It's Saturday and I have a beach volleyball game to attend.

Have a great weekend!

Okay, I'm late for volleyball now, but I also wanted to mention that a huge difference between the Masai tribes, France and us, using this argument, is that our diary is processed preservative-laden. Furthermore, most of the cheese the French eat doesn't even come from cows -- and none of it is pasturized!

If you want to reap the benefits of those diets, you'd have to get your hands on foods that are illegal in the US, or make your own.

Again with the great weekend!

My gosh where did I recommend a 50% fat diet.
NO NO NO ..
I am not recommending that. I am saying that low fat does not appear to be the answer. We have tons of Americans many eating a low fat diet who are overweight. I personally tracked my diet for a time and was eating 14% fat and DID NOT LOSE WEIGHT..
Many people overeat to compensate for the satiation they are not getting because they are eating these low fat foods.
Full fat foods in moderation are fine.
Yes I am sorry to say I am not impressed with the dietary recommendations of most health groups..(how is that for stirring the pot MUSIC TEACHER) because I dont see them working.
I see our country having a higher incidence of obesity, and heart attack then others.
And i see many folks struggling to stay with the guidelines recommended by many of these groups.

My poor Aunt is severely diabetic follows the regime recommended and has progressively gotten fatter and poorer eyesight and more obese over the years.
YES I am going to go out on a limb here and say the American pyramid we have been fed is very faulty also.
PS yes that was my post on Michis ladder Music teacher.

Be careful there, Fitbabe, people will start thinking that you're in favor of a low-carb way of eating. I don't talk about that anymore around here because I got stung too many times.

My mother, both grandmothers, and many aunts and uncles are all diabetics. Isn't it a coincidence that they were all at least 50 pounds overweight when they were diagnosed, from binging on chocolate, ice cream, etc. . . for years. My mother tries to say that "diabetes is hereditary". Yes, if you also allow yourself to be so severely overweight. It's the bad eating habits that are hereditary.

On the subject of dairy, I grew up on a Holstein dairy farm. Most of my Dad's relatives (that were farmers) live to be a very old age, eating lots of meat, vegetables from the gardens, full-fat milk that is unpasturized (straight from the tank). However, they also did lots of manual labor, getting plenty of exercise, and weren't very overweight. The milk that we drank was as fresh as it gets, with no chemicals or processes involved. I've since cut way down on my dairy consumption, since coming to the realization that cows produce milk to feed their calves, not human beings. Doesn't it make sense that a human mother produces milk that is perfect for her baby, and a dairy cow would do the same? Gee, it's no wonder that so many people are lactose intolerant. Maybe the stuff isn't meant for us to drink????

Hell, I might as well state my bold bottom line:
I think we Americans would be better served if we counted fiber everyday eaten from whole foods. If we hit 35g a day (25-35g is recommended), everyday, would we have a weight problem?

(I have no idea if the Masai would be better served in this way. I'm thinking they get alot of fiber and don't need to count it! I am glad to hear someone say the French grow portly in their '40s, as my uncle likes to talk about how thin French people are everytime he sees me, an overweight American.)

p.s. Fitbabe - congrats on the weight loss and the yogurt! How's the fiber count?

Fiber..I definately agree with you Braveheart. Fiber is very very important..and because so much of the fiber has been weened out of our food I also often take fiber supplements..(gee now what kind of grief will I get for taking fiber supplements.)

Music Teacher yes I agree diabetes is a condition that we can get because we do not take care of ourself. BUT I also think its very much hereditary. I have my aunt who has it, her daughter who got it at 18 and her daughter who was diagnosed at a very tender age. Its definately a hereditary thing also. That said proper diet and NOT necessarily the one advocated by the diabetes association can help.

Milk..frankly I dont know if we were meant to drink cows milk or not. I can say that as a school child I was told that "milk was natures most perfect food" and as a person who never really liked eating (can you believe that) I found it a quick way to get full ..

Now if you told me we werent intended to eat meat I think I could believe that because I find eating meat pretty gross..but then in all honesty I would have to say that I do think we are intended to eat meat because folks I know who eat it tend to be healthier and skinnier than those who focus on carbs.
BUT YUCK I really hate meat so there what more can I say.
Except good thing I was not born a French person because then I would probably have been forced to eat brains, fattened calves, veal etc instead of the apple pie, rice pudding and other items my mother and I fought about.

Gee am I the only person who cant stand cooked fruit and hates apple pie.

Fitbabe,
You are having fun here, aren't you!
I have to ask, if you care to share, what and why is your fiber supplementation protocol?

I just take good ole psycillum (sp) fiber pills ..Twinlabs.
I read several books on fiber and decided since so much fiber was purged from my diet due to the way bread is made etc. And despite being aware of it,I dont always get my daily dose of lots of fiber, I felt I could still use additional fiber. I opted to add fiber PILLS to my diet (cant stand the drink yuck)
If I take a fiber supplement I will add 2-3 to my diet.
I am sure to take them on a night if I eat something very fatty like pizza.
I dont take them all the time.
But I dont think there is anything wrong with taking several per day. They help fill you up, slow the processing of foods and thus slow insulin release.

Just a note on fiber. If you seek out Whole Grain breads, they still have tons of fiber.

Flax seed is also a great, natural fiber supplement.

I'm a real fiber freak and I occasionally supplement fiber as well, but the whole grain breads and cereal, along with plenty of fresh fruits and veggies should be all the fiber most people need.

Also, a lot of telecommunication companies use fiber optic cable. Contact your internet service provider to see if you're hooked to the web via fiber optics, that'll give you plenty of fiber.

(No, not really)

Hey, thanks for the tip about fiber optics! LOL

But seriously, would you be willing to share when, why and how much YOU supplement fiber? (if it's not too personal)

Not that I'm looking to supplement...I find the challenge of getting up my fiber count from foods at each meal is actually fun, and is the single easiest track of logic for me to follow as I improve my overall eating.

But I'm very interested.

(thanks Fitbabe, was interested to hear your input too)

Braveheart -

Because we're in mixed company, I'll have to be a little vague and say that I had to have surgery on my plumbing a few years ago, so getting blocked up would be bad news.

The upside is that I now know a lot about fiber and I can share that with you!

Wow, sorry to hear about your plumbing troubles -I sincerely hope it is all in the past!

I am all ears about anything you might be willing to teach about fiber. Do you agree it is one of those nutrition topics that many people still do not know about? And would benefit if they did?

Honestly, I can't even remember what it was about fiber that made me a believer when I was reinventing my diet two years ago, which was just before I got the brilliant Michi's ladder in the mail, which had all the high fiber foods I had just researched all neatly typed out on a 5x7 card.

Since you are so interested here is a bit more info on fiber.
A few years ago I picked up a book called YOUR PERSONAL NUTRITIONIST Fiber and Fat Counter by ED BLONZ PH.D ..Its about $4.
Anyway in the book he talks about how much fiber to eat, what food has it etc.
Then I read an article in a magazine which said that fiber supplements like psyllium can reduce calorie absorption by anywhere from 30-180 calories a day enough to help you shed 3-18 pounds per year.
Plus its supposed to help lower your cholesterol.
AND THE DIET PILL book I read said that fiber pills are one of the few pills that does help you lose weight.
So armed with that info I just try to add fiber naturally, since I dont always eat right I also take the fiber pills sometimes
I definately take them on a night when I eat fatty foods.
I have been using psycillum (sp) fiber the gal at the health food store recommended grapefruit fiber.
And right here at Beachbody they sell chitosan which is a marine fiber.
I did some experimenting with chitosan and I think it can be helpful if used properly. There is also a book on it called THE FAT BLOCKER DIET (which yours truly reviewed at Amazon) not that well written but..its on chitosan.
And there are several other books on chitosan at Amazon including Chitin-chitosan and the Woodland Health series which yours truly also reviewed.

Braveheart -

Fitbabe's not going to like this, but I actually agree with her about psyllium.

You see, they're are two kinds of fiber, soluble and insoluble. They both come exclusively from plants and grains and they are both help to helping to maintain regularity (in your "plumbing.") Insoluble fiber just passes right through you. The other kind, soluble, gels when mixed with liquid, so it sticks with you. If you don't mind me getting a little gross about it, as a gel, soluble fiber increases the bulk, and promotes the smooth passage of waste. Insoluble fiber builds up and softens stool, avoiding constipation and straining.

Soluble fiber been proven to reduce cholesterol levels and therefore your risk of heart disease. Psyllium husk is an excellent source of soluble fiber. As is flax seed, which I mentioned earlier. (Flax seed is also a great source of omega 3 fatty acids, which appeals to me because I have a habit of forgeting to eat fish, the only meat I eat.) Oats, peas, beans and some fruits also contain soluble fiber. Here's a chart I dug up:

FOOD SERVING---------TOTAL FIBER--SOLUBLE--INSOLUBLE FIBER (GRAMS)
English muffin----------2.0---------0.5------1.5
Spaghetti[1 cup]--------2.0---------0.5------1.5
Whole-wheat/slice-------2.5---------0.5------2.0
White rice 1/2 cup------0.5---------0.0------0.5
Bran cereal 3/4 cup-----5.5---------0.5------5.0
Corn flakes 1 cup-------1.0---------0.0------1.0
Oatmeal-3/4 cup---------3.0---------1.0------2.0
Banana------------------2.0---------0.5------1.5
Apple-------------------3.0---------0.5------2.5
Orange------------------2.0---------0.5------1.5
Pear--------------------4.5---------0.5------4.0
Strawberries-1/2 cup----1.0---------0.0------1.0
Broccoli 1/2 cup--------2.0---------0.0------2.0
Corn 1/2 cup------------1.5---------0.0------1.5
Potatowith skin---------4.0---------1.0------3.0
Spinach 1/2 cup---------2.0---------0.5------1.5
Kidney beans 1/2 cup----4.5---------1.0------3.5
Popcorn 1 cup-----------1.0---------0.0------1.0
Peanut butter[2 tblsp]--1.5---------0.0------1.5

You should be getting 20 to 35 grams a day of fiber, 5 to 10 of that being soluble. Personally, I clear that easily and, if you ate all the whole grains (heavy on the oats), fruits and legumes you should, you'd probably clear that too.

As for chitosan, it's made from crab and shrimp shells. It's technically a fiber because it passes through, but what it's supposed to do that's special is bind with fat and prevent your body from absorbing it. I honestly don't know if it has the other benefits of fiber. I doubt it. Personally -- this is my opinion -- I'd rather just eat a healthy diet with with 30% of my calories being fat (largely unsaturated, some not) and let that fat do what it's supposed to do.

On a final note, remember that article Fitbabe cited about psyllium helping you lose weight? Well, that's what ALL fiber does. It helps slow the absorption of food, so your body can do it more efficiently. This prevents the body from getting overloaded and sending everything right to fat.

hey that's great info, thanks! (Fitbabe - thanks to you too - you really get around with your book reviews!)

I think you captured what turned me on about fiber...
#1 soluble fiber affects blood cholesterol levels, lowering it (by binding with cholesterol molecules, if I remember correctly?)
#2 fiber slows absorption of food to control insulin response and possible fat storage/release
#3 fiber makes the best stool in the house
#4 fiber is filling...you feel like you eat alot when you eat high fiber, even though the calories are relatively lower than with lower fiber foods
#5 if you are chasing 20-35g fiber a day through whole foods, chances are you are eating a very healthy diet

Thanks for the fiber chart too! I will study it again! As I said earlier, the absolute easiest most logical diet for me to follow is...choose higher fiber selections. Add fat and protein to choice.

However I do have a plain old flat out question, and I'm curious about your response.

If I eat a fatty unbalanced dinner, and I know I have not met my fiber requirements for the day, do you think I should take some psyllium that night to balance things out? (I have no problem in the plumbing department yet)

Yes, I am interested in weight loss, even though I don't like the concept of 'fat blocking' with either psyllium or chitosan. But maybe I need to open my eyes abit here, if I believe in 20-35g fiber a day.

What are your thoughts?

Gosh Advisor..you sure know alot..almost as much as me! Just kidding.

On the fiber issue I did a lot of experimenting with chitosan but I did not personally think it was much better than plain old psycillum.

PLUS the chitosan absorbs many nutrients and I read that it can lead to bone loss. I am sure psycillum would absorb some nutrients also (on its way out) but I have not read that its a big a problem as it appears to be with chitosan.

Plus pyscillum is cheaper. So I use the fiber pills (not the drink which is even cheaper but gag) when I want to take in additional fiber.

Braveheart -

Your factoids are correct.

To answer your question, I don't know if popping psyllium is going to save you from the effects of a fatty meal, but it certainly wouldn't hurt you.

Psyllium isn't a fat blocker, btw. That's just chitosan - I don't know about the bone lose, but what I do know that when you block fat you also block fatty acids, which are an important part of nutrition -- especially omega 3 and 6.

I don't really think psyllium -- or any other fiber for that matter (excluding chitosan) -- actually absorbs nutrients. If anything, they slow digestion, allowing your body to absorb nutrients better.

Interesting...I'll look into psyllium. Thanks for all the help!

Hey Fitbabe, looks like I hijacked your thread! Sorry about that! Sometimes I just have to talk about fiber!

Here are some more factoids for you Brave..from THE FAT OF THE LAND.
For cholesterol lowering effects guar fiber supplements lowered it by 8%, 15% for pectin and psyllium 16%.
Fiber also reduces the caloric value of food. If you eat 5 ounces of food and one ounce of that is fiber than you have eaten only 4 ounces of calories. Fiber wraps up food and prevents its contact with the calorie absorbing mechanisms ..it speeds the nutrients through the body. One study gave men a slice of high fiber bread, even with the bread they ate 159 fewer calories than those who ate white bread and lost a greater amount of weight.
If you eat a high fiber breakfast studies show you will eat less at lunch.
Another study found that subjects ingesting psyllium on crackers ate 150 calores LESS per day than control subjects who did not have the psyllium. Thus a weight loss of 1 pound every two weeks approx could occur.
He has a lot more info in his book, but that gives you some of it. Naturally I am sure another book would say something all together different.

Hey Caroline, how goes the body building program?

The point you made about fiber is especially helpful for those counting carbs, because the fiber g's are part of the total carb count of a food, and - if you are accounting that way, not that I do myself or recommend it to anyone - could be subtracted from the total carb amount for the reason you wrote. (so, a serving of bread that has 18g carbs, of which 7g is fiber, could be counted as 11g carbs, since the 7g fiber is not digested.)

btw, I went to buy some psyllium as a result of this conversation - not that I need it, just to experiment - and of course it was located in the laxative section.

So I stood there and looked at all of the choices, and read all the claims on the packaging, and since I actually know what and why I want fiber in my food and in my body...I couldn't bring myself to chunk out the change to buy anything. Rather, I re-resolved to eat great colorful delicious healthy high fiber food at every meal.

And leave the psyllium for later days!

Of course its great to get your fiber from food..but not everybody does all the time. I mean our food has really been stripped of much of its goodness.
I dont know why you would feel guilty about add some fiber in the form of psycillum to your diet. Its like adding a supplement, in my opinion.
Another comment for carb counters, the fiber doesnt count, there are some carb counter books out there that deduct the fiber for you. These give you the NET CARBS. Carbs minus fiber. The Eades author of PROTEIN POWER have a little carb counter that does it and so do RECENT issues of the ATkins carb counter (but not the old ones)

Fitbabe,
Thanks for all the feedback!
I'd rather address why I - and many people - don't get all the fiber we need from food. It's in there, all we need to do is eat whole foods.
Once I've maxed out on getting my diet totally up to speed, and I truly understand the limits of fiber in whole foods and the liklihood of me eating enough on a daily basis...then I'll reconsider pysillium as a supplement.
Sounds like you are ahead of me on that score.

Boy, I am missing all the fun. Frankly, debating causes me stress. So, I just continue to research scientific sources and make up my own mind based on real science - which changes all the time too.

For my Biological Psychology course, I am writing a paper on the Set Point Theory. This debatable theory explains the neurological basis for why 95% of people that lose weight, eventually gain it back. The source is the hypothalamus of the brain that acts as a regulator of body temperature, heart rate and perhaps body weight which constantly works to maintain a certain status quo. The idea is that the hypothalamus works to maintain a certain body weight therefore making it difficult, if not impossible, to maintain a weight other than that established by the hypothalamus. There is much debate and research, so should be an interesting project. I'll post a summary of my assessment when I am done in about two months.

I must say, I was thrilled with the revelation that Fitbabe had when she started this thread. Her very first sentence read:

"After reading all the books, trying all kinds of things...guess what. It boils down to eat less, exercise more."

YEEEEEEEHHHAAAAAAAAAAA I thought. FINALLY, Fitbabe has tossed all the fad books and diets aside and has narrowed it down to something that makes sense. However, after reading the very next sentence I thought....I knew it....to good to be true!

Keep the debate going - we all learn from it.

Jim

Jim,

Honest to God I am secretly hoping a high fiber diet from whole foods is the lifelong weapon that will help me poop out my way-too-high-set point for once and for all. Learning how to prepare such foods deliciously and easily with enough healthy fats/proteins to keep my appetite/eating psychology interested is the challenge I am working on now, and I'm enjoying it.

When I look at my past, set point theory scares me to death! C'mon HYPOTHALAMUS, WORK WITH ME BABY!!!


Good luck with your research paper, will look forward to hearing your conclusions!

Braveheart,

After reviewing some studies and articles on the subject, my guess is that I will not come to any specific conclusions relative to the set point theory and weight. There is some data to support it, and other that seem to contradict it. It will be interesting.

There was a very long time where I seemed to settle in at about 180 and just stayed at that weight sort of naturally. However, today I seem to have settled in at about 150 very comfortably. I don't feel the affects of my hypothalamus trying to adjust my weight back up to 180 through cravings to eat more or through a desire to be less active. My intuition says that we probably do have a set point, but it is affected by our fat free mass and activity level. That would explain why only the people that exercise every day have a chance at keeping weight off long term (i.e exercise affects our fat free mass and activity level).

One thing that ALL the research supports is that DIETS DON'T WORK (including Atkins, The Formula, Michis) for LONG TERM weight loss, and virtually NOBODY that loses signficant weight and keeps it off long term does so without exercising about an hour every day. Supplements for long term weight loss aren't even worthy of discussion. So, if you don't have an absolute committment to SENSIBLE eating and EXERCISE (moderate to vigorous) most days, if not all, the odds are against you (greater than 90%). If I bet a nickel to every person that believes they can lose weight any other way.....I would be a very wealthy man!

Think about this....how many people do you know that have dieted for years and are still over weight? Then, think about how many people you know who exercise vigorously for years and are still overweight.

Jim

Jim,

I have exercised vigorously for years, my entire life actually, and am repeatedly overweight, but trending down slowly (slowly.) Trying to fool my hypothalamus this time around, I guess.

Glad to hear you have settled in so solidly at a healthier lower weight, and your lifestyle supports it! If I remember correctly, you lost 30+ pounds? Terrific! My weight swing over the years has been 3X that at each jump. Hard to imagine for an exerciser, isn't it! What a nightmare! Yet we are out there, eating up a storm of all the wrong foods, I would have to guess, based on my personal experience.

I am just a layperson, rarely do I read source research, but I am smart enough to follow a trail of logic (when it exists) even in the sensational mainstream reporting of health/nutritional/fitness news. Your description of how you 'intuit' set point matches what I think too. I am also watching for research that tracks how very high body fat% affects metabolism, weight loss, appetite, energy level, etc.

Lots of interesting things to follow, meantime I believe in delicious high fiber eating, daily exercise, and big love to all the fat people out there who are trying their darndest to get and stay healthy. (like me)

Good luck on your travels Jim!

You misconstrued what I said. I said bottom line for weight loss you dont have to have a certain ratio of calories from fat, protein, etc.
You have to eat less calories. I DID NOT SAY THAT eating an unbalanced diet was healthy. But I will say that if you can lose weight at 1200 calories and you eat 1200 cals. of twinkies you will most likely lose weight. NO WHERE DID I SAY THAT WAS HEALTHY.
I said bottomline its calories.
Next point YES YES some people do lose weight with diets and do keep it off. I am not saying alot do but some do.
I have a buddy who lost weight and kept it off with Weight Watchers which is a diet (and I know what a diet is)
Next I will say I have learned MUCH from diets I have read about. I can honestly say I have never been able to follow a diet.. I cant stick to them.
When I tried Somersizing for example I gained weight because I couldnt stick to what she advised. I do know one gal that loves Somersizing and has lost and kept off over 100 pounds for several years
I HAVE LOST WEIGHT and guess what I am eating what I like in moderation and guess what that includes chips and cookies (I buy the real good French cookies) and it also includes salads etc.
AND THIS IS HOW I ATE as a teen..
And I weighed about 110 then. (Although then I ate cookies and milk for breakfast everyday) now I have a full fat yogurt a few almonds..maybe a slice of toast.

Where have you been?
I have missed you telling me what I am doing wrong!

Fitbabe,

I didn't miscontrue what you said. Reread my post - I didn't say anything of the things that you implied I said. I agree with your statement about total calories, although some very recent studies show that all calories MIGHT not be created equal relative to weight loss. I was only disappointed in your conclusion to begin consuming high fat dairy etc. But your job isn't to please me, it is to get results and if you are getting them then go for it. Yes, you will be able to find people that lose weight and keep it off with diets, they are in the 5%. I think that doing what the 95% do is a safer bet. It's a no brainer. By the way, fiber has not been removed from "our" food, it has been removed from the food that you choose to eat.

Braveheart - I can't imagine having the stuggle that you have had. I haven't had a weight problem my entire life. I never "exercised" regularly again after high school, but was fairly active (remodelled homes etc.) In my younger days, I was one of these people that overweight people loved to hate. I could eat anything and still weigh 145 lbs. (I am small - medium boned and only 5'8" - OK...5'7 1/2"). However, over the years when I became much less active, and began eating an average of 1.5 meals/day, I started really packing on the lbs and almost all of it was in my belly which is an extremely unhealthy situation as you probably know. You are probably genetically predisposed to being overweight. That doesn't make it impossible, just more difficult. It seems women too have a more difficult time with weight loss. There are also medical conditions or medications that can contribute to it, you might consider checking that out too. Have you been up and down with your weight? Have you assessed what worked for you to get the weight down, and what you did different to cause it to return?

I don't believe that I have that genetic predisposition, but now my age presents a different situation I have settled in at this new weight, about 5 lbs heavier than I was in high school, but I am MUCH more active now than I was in high school! I exercise very vigoroulsy for AT LEAST an hour almost every day to keep the weight off and to stay healthy. I eat 5 small meals a day of mostly whole foods. I am rarely hungry, so I am comfortable. However, I am almost always sore from workouts (at least one major muscle group, I do a split routine), but it's a healthy kind of sore. Yes, I have settled in, but I have to WORK MY BUTT OFF to keep it and make sacrifices when it comes to eating foods that I would love to eat regularly, but I know are inconsistent with keeping the weight off.

Jim

Jim,
LOL, sorry, I didn't mean to make 'settled in' at your healthier lower weight sound like it was easy! That's one of the great things I've learned on this site that I'd love to share with other overweight people...maintaining a low bodyfat/weight is hardly 'easy' for anyone, no matter where you started.
Keep working your butt off in good health - you look great!

Hey hey, just wanted to join in on the fun here!!

I also take a fiber supplement occasionally, but not too ften anymore. I have irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), which is very common but a bothersome condition, even though it is not dangerous. I initially started eating healthier for 2 reasons: 1: I was too overweight and not as healthy as I should have been, and 2, I was having terrible IBS pain because I was eating way too much white flour, refined sugar, and not nearly enough fiber. Even if I took a fiber supplement daily, it did not do much, since it only offers about 2g of fiber. And I know we need over 20g a day, and I have known that ever since I was diagnosed with IBS 5 years ago.

So, I increased my intake of fruits and veggies, and made sure the grains I ate were whole grain and not processed or white flour. No, that does not mean that I never had white flour, just much much less. I have since improved greatly, even from the beginning when I ate much healthier than I did before losing weight. Now, I have discovered that I do not need a fiber supplement if I include 3-4 fruits daily, about 4 or 5 servings of non-starchy veggies, and either oatmeal (whole oats, non-flavored), wheatena hot cereal or a variety of kashi cereal at breakfast. I also eat only sprouted grain bread now, flourless, and Wasa crispbreads, multigrain variety. All of this helps me tremendously, and I find I need the supplement less and less. But I did not use psyllium, I used a flax fiber supplement. It was more beneficial, and it had both soluble and insoluble fiber in it. It also gave 3 grams fiber per dose, 1 gram more than the other stuff did.

And there are many different ways to modify recipes in order to up the fiber content, while they still taste good. Last weekend, my sister found this recipe for a low-calorie and lowfat pumpkin bread pudding. She decided not to use regular bread, and used the sprouted grain bread. It was absolutely delicious, and even my husband liked it! He does not like most things with pumpkin, and he eats the sprouted grain bread since he has no choice (that is the only one I buy), but he is picky with bread pudding. And I lost a pound as of yesterday (yippee!), with eating that last Sunday.

So, fiber has its benefits. It will keep you full, it is great for the heart, and keeps things "moving". And I will tell you this, it sure helps with the pains of IBS. I hardly ever get a bad "attack" anymore.

Bonnie

I still think the 40-30-30 ratio of eating is the best. I feel the best and work out the hardest when I eat this way!

Ciao!

Bonnie

But I just dont see that the diet recommended by the American Diabetes Association or the American Heart Association seems to work.
Folks I know with diabetes following the plan dont seem to get better.
And Americans are the fattest nation in the land.
Now I look to France, I see them eating whole milk and dairy products. Despite the fact that they smoke..they have less incidence of heart disease and they are slender as a culture.
I am tired of reading from authories what I should and should not be eating here in the States. Foods that change from one year to the next.
I am going to take my cue from a country that has, had great success.
I will eat whole fat in moderation in dairy.
So far its working great for me. And I sure feel better.

Fitbabe,

We know that you need to do whatever works for you, as long as it is healthy. All that some of us are saying is that eventually those whole dairy products are going to catch up to you, as far as cholesterol level, and in my opinion, it is not healthy to eat them daily and regularly.

As far as the diabetic diet, after trying all different plans (like the Weight Watchers point and alsol the Zone diet), I finally asked my mother this past summer to go over the diet that her nutritionist gave her. It was the diabetic diet. I had not lost weight for a very long time at that point following the Zone, and needed a change since I was also not comfortable eating all those Zone bars and having to eat protein, carbs and fat at every meal or snack. I mean, sometimes I just felt like having a piece of fruit in the middle of the day but that was not allowed. I did not like that...felt trapped in a way. Once when I called the Zone hotline to see what to do to lose weight again since I had not been, I asked about sodium intake. They told me that a person does not have to be concerned at all with sodium intake while doing the Zone diet. I did not like hearing this at all. What if I was a person with high blood pressure that should obviously not be eating too much sodium? They are not doctors and cannot give that advice, in my opinion. And we all know that high sodium is no good, whether we have high blood pressure or not.

When I switched to the diabetic diet, I started losing weight again over the summer. My mother has also done great on this, losing weight at a nice healthy pace. Her blood pressure had gone up, so her doctor sent her to this nutritionist at the beginning of the summer. She started the diet around July 15th, and has lost 25 pounds. She now loses about a pound a week which is healthy. Now, when I follow this diet, I also make sure I eat whole grains for my servings of complex carbs, and lowfat dairy for those servings. Also, lean protein. These are the things that make a difference in our health. A person can follow this diet strictly but eat white processed bread for their complex carbs, and fatty meats for their protein servings, but they are not eating healthy, just less calories. The point is, eating the right foods and making the right choices for health are the most essential here. A person can also follow something like the Zone diet strictly, but if they use all their carb allotment in white bread or pasta, it is not nearly as healthy as using fruits, veggies and whole grains.

EXERCISE..... that is the key!

Great. Good luck.

James I used to workout to the Firm, 5 days a week about 1 hour each time, never missed for 2 years.
I did not lose weight.
I think that exercise is very important but diet is key for weight loss.

If I was trying to only convince you Fitbabe, I would have stopped posting a long time ago. You disagree with science and the experts. I don't understand it. As Dr. Phil often asks "How's that working for you?

I know I won't convince you. However, for anybody else that is interested in losing weight and KEEPING IT OFF long term - all scientific research supports that you can lose weight by diet alone, but you have little chance of maintaining that weight loss if you don't exercise most, if not all days of the week. You can try to prove the research wrong and it will be an uncomfortable struggle that will likely lead to weight regain.

I hate to think that you are going to constantly struggle because you refuse to see the connection between exercise, weight loss and MAINTAINING weight loss. YOU GAINED WEIGHT AFTER YOU STOPPED DOING THE FIRM. I didn't make that up, you posted that. You are another data point that SUPPORTS the scientific research - your example proves my point!

Anybody can lose weight through dieting alone. However, only people that eat a sensible diet AND exercise regularly will maintain weight loss long term. I know... I know....you have that one friend or two that lost weight and kept it off through diet (wait until the 5 year point before you declare victory on them). Anecdotal arguments like that remind me of cigarette smokers using the example of the 106 year old woman that smoked cigarettes every day to prove their point that smoking cigarettes isn't bad for you.

Jim

Excerpts from an article on "Weight Management" from the American Dietetic Association supported by scientific research with references (i.e. no fad or junk book reading here). My words IN ALL CAPS followed by excerpts from the article.

THE BOTTOM LINE:
"Successful weight management....requires a lifelong commitment to healthful lifestyle behaviors emphasizing sustainable and enjoyable eating practices and daily physical activity."

EXERCISE HELPS WITH WEIGHT LOSS...AND MORE
"Not only does physical activity contribute to weight loss by altering energy balance, but also favorably affects body composition, risk for disease, mood and quality of life."

WANT TO KEEP IT AFTER YOU LOSE IT?
"Regular physical activity also appears to be one of the best predictors of successful weight maintenance (76)."

LOSE FAT - ADD MUSCLE
"It is well established that physical activity during weight loss can favorably affect energy balance and body composition (74,77)."

OH NO....DIETS CAUSE LOSS OF MUSCLE MASS!
"...without exercise, loss of lean body mass with dieting alone contributes to a decrease in metabolic rate. Physical activity has been shown to aid in the preservation of lean body mass during weight loss (78,79). The addition of moderate physical activity to restriction of energy intake in promoting weight loss, has been shown to limit the loss of lean body mass to less than 10% (79)."

EXERCISE = FAT FREE MASS = HIGHER METABOLISM
"Maintaining or minimizing the loss of fat-free mass during periods of restricted energy intake appears to be particularly beneficial, since fat free mass is the most important factor influencing resting metabolism (74)."

LIFT WEIGHTS = IMPROVED BODY COMPOSITION
"Furthermore, the addition of resistance training to aerobic activity reportedly enhances body composition further (78)."

WHAT? EXERCISE REDUCES BELLY FAT WITHOUT DIET?
"Physical activity also may positively influence the distribution of body fat independent of its effect on body weight (74). Despite the fact that the combination of dieting and physical activity has been shown to reduce visceral abdominal fat, several studies have shown the benefit of exercise alone in reducing visceral abdominal fat. Physically active individuals have also been found to have lower waist-to-hip ratios in comparison to sedentary individuals (80,82)."

Applicable References:

74. Rippe JM, Hess St. The role of physical activity in the prevention and management of obesity. J Am Diet Assoc. 1998;98 (Suppl 2):S31-S38.

75. McInnis KY. Exercise and obesity. Coron Artery Dis. 2000;11:111-116.

76. Pavlou KN, Krey S, Steffee WO. Exercise as an adjunct to weight loss and maintenace in moderately obese subjects. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989;49:1115- 1123.

77. Schulz LO, Schoeller DA. A compilation of total daily energy expenditures and body weights in healthy adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 1994;60:676-681.

78. Ballor DL, Katch VL, Becque MD, Marks CR. Resistance weight training during caloric restriction enhances lean body weight maintenance. Am J Clin Nutr. 1988;319:1173-1179.

79. Porcari J, Ward A, Morris D, Maher M, Cuneo P, O’Hanley S, Rippe J. Comparison of weight loss in males and females after 16 weeks of fitness walking and/or diet [abstract]. Med Sci Sports Exers. 1986;21:S102.

80. Ross R, Dagnone D, Jones PJH, Smith H, Paddags A, Hudson R, Janssen I. Reduction in obesity and related comorbid conditions after diet-induced weight loss or exercise-induced weight loss in men. Ann Intern Med. 2000;133:92-103.

81. Mourier A, Gautier JF, De Kerviler E, Bigard AX, Villette JM, Garnier JP, Duvallet A, Guezennec CY, Cathelineau G. Mobilization of visceral adipose tissue related to the improvement in insulin sensitivity in response to physical training in NIDDM. Effects of branched-chain amino acid supplements. Diabetes Care. 1997;20:385-391.

82. Wing RR, Matthews KA, Kuller LH, Meilahn EN, Plantinga P. Waist to hip ratio in middle-aged women. Associations with behavioral and psychosocial factors and with changes in cardiovascular risk factors. Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 1991;11:1250-1257.

Here is link to full report:

http://www.eatright.org/Public/Other/index_adar0802.cfm

"CONCLUSION: These results suggest that recommendations of higher levels of physical activity (EE of 2500 kcal/wk) promote long-term weight loss better than do conventional recommendations."

Jeffery R. W., Wing R. R., Sherwood N. E., Tate D.F. (2003) Physical activity and weight loss: does prescribing higher physical activity goals improve outcome? Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Oct;78(4):684-9. Retrieved November 3, 2003 from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14522725&dopt=Abstract

Yes Jim since I gave up what a number of experts here in the states have been telling me and started following what successful cultures have been doing for years I havent been struggling anymore. I have lost weight. So Yes if Dr. Phil (who I am sure is doing quite well with his diet bars and new diet book )were to ask me is it working for me I can say I am succeeding thank you. (And delightfully without the help of Dr. Phils pseudo nutrition bars and diet book)
I do feel exercise is very important. However I feel that what you eat plays the most important part in your weight. You can exercise till you are blue in the face but if you eat a lousy diet with too many calories you are not going to lose weight.
I have said all I am going to say on this topic, Jim. You can disagree all you like but I did not lose following the traditional diets and what I am doing now is working and I have never felt better.
I am doing what works for me. I wanted to share,nuff said.

I am really thankful I am enjoying rich dark chocolate, good bread, fine French pastries, whole milk yogurt (organic baby yogurt by Stonyfield is just the right size 4oz)and other fine foods and losing weight instead of biting into one of expert Dr. Phil's weight loss bars which I have heard are pretty tasteless..not to mention the tacky picture on the bar.

Regardless I have said all I can say. Its working for me. I am no longer dieting or struggling. And I feel great!

Although, this got a little whacky at times, my basic question is for FITBABE. I too have eaten lowfat and worked out for years with very little success.

So my questions are this (1) how much weight have you lost in what time frame, and (2) what do you eat in a typical day?

Fitbabe, I think it is all about balance. And, it appears that you have found balance and have learned how to tip it in your favor and that is a good thing. I am sincerely glad that whatever you are doing is working for you.

For those interested in looking at the health of other cultures, check out the Okinawans.

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/wl/2001/wlFeatured0901.html

Also, although the French have less cardiovascular disease than Americans, men in France have higher rates of death from stroke than American men.

I say....heck with the French ...Do what the Okinawans do!

HOW LOW-FAT DIETS CAN MAKE YOU FAT

Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

In the last 20 years, the average Americans has reduced his fat intake from 41 percent of calories to fewer than 32 percent. Yet, the percentage of overweight people increased from 25.4 percent to 33.3 percent. Many doctors recommend low-fat diets to lower cholesterol, high blood pressure and body fat, so manufacturers produce low-fat products that often have the same number of calories as their fattier counterparts.

People buy foods that taste good and fat helps to make food taste good. (note, fat also makes you feel fuller) Low fat, high-carbohydrate [foods] that are low in fiber do not fill you up, so you eat too much. Your body converts all extra calories to fat, and the extra calories from low-fat products end up as body fat.

A low-fat diet, high in calories, make you fat. The only way to lower cholesterol, high blood pressure and body fat is to take in fewer calories, and the only way that you are going to reduce calories without feeling hungry is to increase your intake of fiber. Increase whole grains, beans, vegetables and fruits. Reduce bakery products, meat, chicken and diary products made from whole milk.

AF Heini, RL Weinsier. Divergent trends in obesity and fat intake patterns: The American paradox. American Journal of Medicine. 1997(March);102(3):259-264.


www.DrMirkin.com

Why are you asking the question? Maybe you did the low fat diet and exercised for years with little results, but I just saw your INCREDIBLE RESULTS that you achieved in just 90 days. In case you forgot - you said you did it by not eating crap, and not missing a day of exercise.

However, I still have a ways to go!

Diddy. Most people would declare victory with your results. I don't think that drinking whole milk, eating pastries and chocolate will get you to the next level. You know what worked for you before, it will work for you again. You just gotta keep at it!

If you don't continue to eat sensibly and exercise (no less than 6 days a week), you will not improve and have little chance of keeping the great results you already achieved.

You can do it!

Jim

The weight loss has been slow but enjoyable on the way down.
For breakfast I usually have one organic yogurt which is whole milk fat by Stonyfield and either a whole grain cereal like Kashi or slice of whole wheat toast with St. Dalfours jam (This French jam is pure berries) Sometimes I eat a few almonds also. I admit I will occasionally have a protein smoothie which is not exactly a real food (ie whey protein powder)

Lunch I eat a sandwich of turkey and some cheddar cheese and lettuce on a half pita or on pumpernickel or rye. Also usually have apple with it and a few chips..(lunch is more American style I guess but I look for the right bread..)

Snack is usually a few very fine French cookies made without the junk in US cookies..and tea..everyday around 3:30 sometimes its an apple..

Dinner is lean protein,veggies, and a starch..but sometimes if I eat lunch out and have something filling I dont want much dinner and will eat something else. I almost always have dessert..Some fine french chocolate or a tiny bit of ice cream, Breyers makes a nice ice cream with recognizable ingredients.

Once every couple weeks I have wine..but not too often as I tend not to want to stop at one glass.

So yep weight loss is very slow, but its relaxing.
I am using The Fat Fallacy Applying the French Diet to the American Lifestyle and also Anne Barones Chic and Slim books for ideas.

I do think you have to look at food differently. Portions must be smaller for its calories in the long run.

Also food is to be enjoyed and eaten slowly.

The French make their bread without sugar..a baguette is yeast, flour , water ..and they eat about 5 pounds of sugar per year vs. 99 pds per person here in the states.

I really check food labels. I dont buy stuff with high fructose corn syrup..I gave up the balance bars. I buy the stuff that is not faux food but real food.

I buy good cheeses also.

Also my goal is to be healthy and at a good weight. I am not aiming to be super buff which I would most likely not accomplish with this way of eating.
So if super buff is your goal I think you have to do a different type diet.

The French walk tons and tons more than we do so I also try to walk as much as I can.

Jim - I was just curious is all!

Thanks for the kudos!!


Diddy

Fitbabe -

Look, you eat whatever you want, but being French, I think you have a slight misunderstanding about the French.

Have you been there? Have you talked to French people? Did you grow up in a French household?

- Many French also smoke like chimneys and drink about 5 cups of strong coffee a day -- both which help one eat less. Although, it doesn’t make a difference because, while they aren’t obese, they are a stocky people.

- On the healthy side, the French eat salad with every meal. Their snacks and deserts are usually fruit. They save sweet deserts for special occasions.

- They haven't, as a culture, consumed whole milk for about 15 years.

- They wouldn't be caught dead eating pasteurized cheese. As a matter of fact, cow's milk cheese is only a small part of the vast array of cheeses they eat. Many of them are sheep’s and goat’s milk.

- They don’t really eat breakfast or dinner. They have a little bread or a croissant with coffee for breakfast. Lunch is big and, as I noted, filled with veggies, salad and fruit as well as the stuff you’ve cottoned on to. Dinner is a small snack, unless it’s a special occasion, in which case they eat more for dinner than you could possibly imagine.

- Many of the French youth of today don't drink any whole milk and they seek out whole grain breads, NOT refined flour baguettes. Ironically, whole grain bread in French is called (translated into English) "Bread of the Ancients" -- or old style bread.

- Maybe they walked everywhere back, like 80 years ago -- but the French all drive around in cars, just like everyone else and they have for 50 years. (Although I'm glad you walk -- it's great for you. when I'm staying with my Aunt in Bordeaux, she thinks I'm insane for walking as much as I do.)

- Finally, and sadly, they've fallen for the American junk food juggernaut just like the rest of the world. They don't just whole foods. They eat candy bars and McDonalds and Coke, just like everyone else.

If you want to eat that way, go right ahead. I think you're doing yourself a disservice. You might not gain weight, but then there's diabetes and heart disease to worry about -- both illnesses that have stricken close friends and family of mine -- FRENCH friends and family.



So you’re reading this and I’m sure you’re confused. On one hand, I’m praising the French and on the other, I’m blasting them -- that’s because they are human like everyone else. I know this because I’m one of them. I’ve lived there and my Dad is as French as they come. You can quote all the books you want, but you are completely, entirely wrong.

Frankly, what you’ve done here is pick and choose the part of a culture (an inaccurate part, I might add) that suits you to justify a diet. Once again, if you want to eat this way, go ahead, but leave the French out of it because you’re misrepresenting my culture.

Denis,

This is great stuff, thanks for writing it out. As I mentioned before, I love to hear all the faults of the French - the smoking, the coffee, the car driving, no breakfast, the stocky culture after 40. Not because I don't love the French, I do...just because I can't wait until I see my Uncle again! LOL (he's the one who manages to work in 'the slim French' every time he sees me)

I had a friend in highschool who went to France one summer as an exchange student...and in 3 months she gained about 40 pounds...we could hardly recognize her for awhile. It was the nutella that got her, I think, and all the delicious rich foods, wine and multi-course meals that the wonderfully hospitable French families served her constantly to celebrate her as a visiting guest.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that for years. I'll use that on my uncle too!

Tell you what, I'd like to go to this France myself for awhile and settle the debate once and for all!

Thanks for your good points..
I did live in France but it was years ago.

Frankly I am going by what I have read ie THE FAT FALLACY and other books.

I mention full fat dairy in yogurt and as in a splash in the coffee. I understand they dont drink a lot of milk.

Good points also about the bread, which I understand is yeast, flour, salt no sugar..I am careful when selecting bread.

Thanks for your input!

A recent BB newsletter has introduced me to what appears to be a great source of nutritional information - Nutrition Action Healthletter. Based on my review of their website, it appears to me that this is a solid source of information. Before I subscribe, a vote of confidence would be appreciated from Denis or Steve, or both.

Thanks!

Jim Smith

Jim -

Steve and I soak up Nutrition Action like a couple teenyboppers reading Tigerbeat. It can, at times, be a tiny bit over-sensational about the results of studies -- and I would argue against the points it makes every now and then -- but in general it's an amazing source of information, in our opinion.

At least in the short term, any way you lose weight is good according to this article.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/diet.fitness/11/10/diets.compared.reut/index.html

Steve got me to order NA about 9 months ago. I would say it has good information, but like most of these newsletters, it won't answer the questions of the insatiably curious. For example it ranks cereals in the last issue. It had Best Bite, and Honerable Mention categories. It provided info about Calories, Fiber, and Sugar, but nothing else. I would like to know what makes on cereal a Best Bite and another have a lower ranking. When you subscribe, they provide a list of Healthy Foods, but provide no information about how they rank them. This list even goes so far as to score the foods, but provides no input or reference about how the scores are determined. I don't argue that the foods they rank higher than others aren't better, but if you are trying to learn, the list answers what, not why. Someone trying to learn and really expand the old noggin, wants the why answered. I get the feeling, like you, why (or how) is an important question.

Having said all of that, I will re-subscribe to the newsletter because it does provide valuable information... I just wish it went deeper.

Brice

I just realized this message thread has only 2 stars..

Now I wonder could that be because folks disagree with my method of weight loss.

Since so many folks have been reading the thread it also makes me wonder if what they are trying is not working for them and they are seeking something new?

Because learning to eat healthy is hard. Eating junk is easy. A little part of everyone (including myself) will always look for the easy way out. That's why this thread is so interesting.

Joe -

I have to say, this is pretty detailed territory here, so I'm not going to claim to be an expert (not that I do, anyway!), but from what I understand, fiber only absorbs the stuff you eat with it -- and then it only absorbs fat-based things, so it might absorb some essential fatty acids, minerals or oil-based vitamins -- but then fiber in food will do that too.

All and all, I don't think it'll absorb that much -- and supplements often have a little extra in them just to deal with problems like this, so I wouldn't sweat it.

if the thread is so interesting why does it only have 2 stars..

and who says I am eating junk..frankly I think I eating a very fine diet...
and because I am no longer ingesting faux food like high fructose corn syrup..my body is responding very well..

BTW I do NOT consider chocolate or wine junk.
I think whole yogurt is fine also.

So please tell me where the junk is I am eating.

ice cream = junk

cookies = junk

chocolate = junk

The enormous sugar content of these things far outweighs any nutritional benefit. I love all these things and, like yourself, I eat them all in moderation, but I don't try to justify them as being good for me.

Nor do the French.

I think ice cream, chocolate, and cookies are fine IF you choose the right ones. Chocolate has a lot of healthy properties including the ability to raise your serotonin levels. So if you make a good chocolate choice and eat it in moderation its a good thing.
I think its healthier to eat a small bowl of a quality ice cream, like say Breyers which contains natural ingredients than say a nutrition bar loaded with HCFS and other questionable ingredients.
So I will eat my real foods in moderation and leave others to eat the faux food.

Can you explain the difference between HFCS and refined sugar? Why, exactly, is refined sugar in moderation ok, while HFCS not? How does HFCS make you fatter?

Sure, it's cheaper for food manufacturers to use and it tricks people into thinking its good, but is it genuinely worse, on a base, nutritional value, than refined sugar?

As for chocolate being good for you, the serotonin argument is silly. MDMA (Ecstacy) raises your serotonin level, is that good for you? If you want a healthy way of raising your serotonin levels, here it is: Exercise.

Let's have a look at a Lindt Dark Chocolate bar as to determine whether it's good for you. 1.4 ounces of chocolate is 160 calories -- 126 of those from fat. That's 14g of fat, 8g saturated fat. That means, in 1.4 ounces of this stuff, you get 40% of the RDA for sat fat. 1.4 ounces!

Nutritionwise, you get a couple minerals in there, but not that much.

Ice cream is just as bad. Half a cup of Breyers Natural Vanilla (130 calories) gives you 20% of the RDA for sat fat.

If you want to eat these things, go ahead, but they just aren't replacing the good stuff you should be eating. In your diet, I notice a lack of fresh produce. Sure, you might lose weight and you might be one of those rare people who can eat this stuff all your life and live to be 120. But odds are, even if you lose weight, you'll probably end up with diabetes or a heart attack.

Moderation includes eating healthy. I don't think this diet is moderation.

As we all know, its a matter of calories in...calories out. I use to weigh 390 lbs. and after going on a low carb, high fat, high protein nutrition plan with plenty of aerobic excersize I am today weighing 184 lbs. Blood work looks great, too. Triglicerides went from 283 to 86 and lipid profile is great with a ratio of 3.0. Not bad for someone eating lots of BEEF, cheese, whole eggs and butter, huh? I also ate plenty of good veggies. All low carb like broccoli, squash, zucchini, spinach and salads every day with the high fat salad dressings, yum! Drink over a gallon of water a day, too. BUT, the key is the excersise. I learned that with plenty of fat burning physical activity you can just about eat anything you want in MODERATION. Now that I am doing P90 for the last 4 weeks I have noticed that my BFP is going back down again. Yey!! I am excersising more parts of my body then ever before as compared to just riding a stationary bike. But, back to the diet. I am beginning to learn now that a good balanced diet with 40/30/30, 40% being low glycemic carbs my be the way for me to go. I would really like to start drinking the creatine supplement, but scared of all the carbs you drink with it. I believe that you can eat fat as long as you restrict your carb intake. Afterall, its the carbs that initiate the insulin response that opens up your cells for fat to be stored. I also am finding out through all the articles that are being written that eating high carbs is ok as long as you restrict the fat intake, thus there is little fat to be delivered to the cells for storage as a result of the insulin response from the carbs. If you eat good carbs and stay away from refined carbs such as sugar, white bread and other high glycemic foods you will do better. In fact you don't need any kind of refined sugar in your diet at all. This is where our society is fouling up. They may very well be eating lower amounts of fat, but they are eating higher amounts of carbs, ie. white breads, sugars, fried potatoes, pastas and eating fats along with it. Its not the fat, its not the protein, its the carbs. Or better yet, its the balance between the three. Success depends on finding that balance and I am beginning to learn. I am still in a weight loss mode right now. I would like to lose on down to 180 lbs. and then build back up to 195 with muscle mass. I realize that I will probably gain some fat mass along the way. I have not found anything that will convince me that a low carb nutrition plan is right for this next phase. Everything I have researched tells me that the lower fat, higher carb plan works best when you want to gain muscle along with 1 gram of protein per lb. of body weight. This will be my next step as soon as I get to 180. I will start this program as I am committed and want to see what happens with this type of diet on this path to better health and life.

Let me say this..I ate a low fat diet for years. 14% fat. I tracked it. I did not lose weight. Many Americans fail to follow a low fat diet for many reasons, one of them is its hard to stick too.
I see lots of diet failure on low fat programs. Regardless of others I can only though refer to what is working for me.
Now I am eating what I want in moderate portions. I am eating plenty of fruits and veggies also.
I am very pleased with my results and especially free with how I feel. I really feel GREAT!
So thats what I am going to do.

I look at the cycling in and out of weight loss centers offering low fat diets that folks cant stick to..and at Atkins which has a high drop out rate..
I am sure these types of plans work for others. But personally I found what I am comfortable with, so I will do it.
Thats all I plan to say on the topic. Others can do what they like, I just shared whats working for me.

This thread is a riot. I've laughed out loud more than a few times whilst reading it. Lots of good info too.

Fitbabe, you're very entertaining: the French, chocolate, ice cream... it's fantastic.

If you really ate all that calorie dense food you'd end up getting your daily caloric allotment in about 10 ounces! I suspect that you don't, or that your moderation is extremely moderate. Otherwise, you wouldn't be seeing good results.

There is some very good science that backs up why high protein diets work, dehydration being a huge part of it--one reason why they aren't good full time eating plans, but none that would back up how a diet consisting of chocolate, ice cream, cookies and wine would help you lose weight, unless you drank enough wine each day that it caused you to vomit all the food you'd eaten.

And I know this, for a fact, because I've done this as well. Those who've followed my posts for a long time probably know that I experiment a lot with different ways of eating, all in the name of "studies are one thing, but I have proof."

After climbing in France and seeing how thin all the climbers were (and how friggn' good), me and a friend went on a "French diet," where we could pretty much eat any kind of junk we wanted: brie, croissants, pate, etc, just so we drank a few glasses of red wine a day. Now, we did this more as a joke, and were exercising like mad so there was absolutely a lag time before the negative results set in but, let me assure you, this did not in any way boost my performance nor help me look like those skinny French climbers. It was, however, fun, and probably very funny for those around observing us. But do I consider this a sensible eating plan? C'mon...

This site exists because it offers programs that work IF YOU DO THEM. The program includes cardiovascular and strength training exercise, sensible eating guidance, and the real bonus, it provides support for those that actually want to DO THE PROGRAM.

So, the bottom line is this ...I post here to tell people that if you just DO THE PROGRAM you will get results. It involves inserting a tape or DVD into a machine SIX days a week (not 3, not 4, not 5) and following along with the fine people on the television. It also involves eating quality foods that can be selected on a list that is in large enough font to read if you are over 45 like me. Is it perfect? NO, Does it work? ABSOLUTELY!

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT THREAD and deserves FIVE STARS because it highlights how avoidance of doing the program as designed, makes it difficult to lose weight. You can see the stuggle that people have that do not follow the program as designed with weight loss.

I hope Heather and Tony don't mind, but this is what can be done if one works their BUTT OFF exercising and eating sensibly! Not everybody will get results like these. However, what makes these people special is that their exceptional results are consistent with the extraordinary work and dedication they put into it. Remember when our parents told us that we will get out of it what we put into it? Did parents stop doing that?

The pictures below depict why I post here. Yes, they look better, but more important they feel better and are much healthier. So if you want to get results like them, I'd suggest that you do what they did and DO THE PROGRAM AS DESIGNED!

Jim

This site exists because it offers programs that work IF YOU DO THEM. The program includes cardiovascular and strength training exercise, sensible eating guidance, and the real bonus, it provides support for those that actually want to DO THE PROGRAM by people that have DONE THE PROGRAM and the people that created it.

So, the bottom line is this ...I post here to tell people that if you just DO THE PROGRAM you will get results. It involves inserting a tape or DVD into a machine SIX days a week (not 3, not 4, not 5) and following along with the fine people on the television. It also involves eating quality foods that can be selected on a list that is in large enough font to read if you are over 45 like me. Is it perfect? NO, Does it work? ABSOLUTELY!

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT THREAD and deserves FIVE STARS because it highlights how avoidance of doing the program as designed, makes it difficult to lose weight. You can see the stuggle that people have that do not follow the program as designed with weight loss.

I hope Heather and Tony don't mind, but this is what can be done if one works their BUTT OFF exercising and eating sensibly! Not everybody will get results like these. However, what makes these people special is that their exceptional results are consistent with the extraordinary work and dedication they put into it. Remember when our parents told us that we will get out of it what we put into it? Did parents stop doing that?

The pictures below depict why I post here. Yes, they look better, but more important they feel better and are much healthier. So if you want to get results like them, I'd suggest that you do what they did and DO THE PROGRAM AS DESIGNED!

tony_heather.jpg (94 Kb, 669 downloads) Tony Heather

And a quick word on low-fat diets. Of course, I've done this too. Not only that, I've closely monitored oodles of people that have eaten like this, as I was training people back in the fat-free days.

Fact number 1 - you WILL ABSOLUTELY lose body fat on a calorie-restricted low-fat diet. Those that don't were not properly monitoring either their caloric intake. Common sympton here is sugary "fat free" snacks, like gummy bears and non-fat frozen yogurt. Remember that undigested sugars in your system at night are stored in adipose tissue (fat).

Fact number 2 - excess low-fat diets are dangerous. I can't even remember how many athletes in weight dependant sports I've seen get leaner and leaner until they got injured (if they were lucky) or chronically sick. I call Epstein-Barr and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome "fat free syndrome" because I've seen the pattern over and over where and athlete gets too lean before contracting this illness. What causes it to happen, usually, is that as they get leaner their performance increases and increases. When it starts to decrease, they're addicted and don't see the signals leading to breakdown until, blam, it hits 'em. I myself was right on the fence here at one point (body fat tested around 2%) and my observations of others, combined with people like my mom telling me I looked awful, helped me reverse the addiction--and it was hard. To myself, I looked like a ripped climbing machine.

Bottom line, your body needs fat, same as it needs protein and carbohydrates. That is why they call some fatty acids "essential fatty acids."

However, it doesn't need ice cream.

but it sure does taste good.

Who is pushing a low fat diet? I don't see anybody here pushing a low fat diet. I don't consider 30% a low fat diet. That thirty percent should include monounsaturated, polyunsaturated and saturated fats. I think the objection to your choices (icecream, pastries, cookies) is that they are high in added sugar, refined grains and are too high in saturated fat.

Hey Caroline - not fair. I took French in high school, but didn't pay much attention.

I've been following this thread since it was born, and have come to one major conclusion. As correct as they may be for the large part, alot of people are making some pretty big generalisations about way too many things.
To say that Amercans are fat primarily becasue of this, or French thin because of that, frustrates me as a scientist. For a bunch of people, this may be the reason. But there may be a lot of people who don't fall into these categories.
I'm not an american, but I do currently live here and have the american food options. So here's my story.
For the last year, I've been eating very well, doing various BeachBody programs, and a lot of roadcycling. I can ride 200 miles in one day, and will do it for fun. I'll tackle rides that are classified as in the top 10 toughest rides in the USA. But do I look that fit? Heck no. I'm 5'6" and 176lbs. I've had immense trouble losing weight, and was forever hungry.
In the last month or so, I've been investigating food allergies, and have come to the conclusion that I am gluten intolerant. After cutting out gluten, I am finally starting to lose weight. I'm not excersising at all (some push ups are it) due to an ankle injury, and am pretty much eating the same as before, but eliminating gluten.
It would appear then that no matter what I did before, I was held back by a food allergy.
I'm not going to quote any sources, but I have read that possibly about 1 in 10 people have undiagnosed food allergies that are adversely affecting their health.
A collegue at work has ben battling for a while, and since being told she was glucose intolerant, and adjusted what sugars she was eating (not calories, or protein, or complex carbs) has lost alot of weight.

My bottom line is this. I don't doubt that high sugar, high fat, diets do cause obesity. But there are plenty of people out there who could be battling an undiagnosed problem. Every individual will respond differently to what they put in their mouths, and how they excersise.
Beachbody's Diet Guide is a great place to start. But as the Advice Staff keep saying, its a guide only, and everyone needs to tailor it to their own personal physiological responses.

I hate generalisatons that come to one conclusion for everyone. One size does definately NOT fit all.

These boards are great because you can get feedback on how to change what might not be optimal for you, as an INDIVIDUAL.
Fitbabe's new eating plan may work for her, or it may be a justification for failing to be able to stick to a low fat plan. The reasons don't matter. But trying to tell others it's a healthy option for a lifestyle based on incomplete data seems wrong to me.

Here endeth my rant.

Zoop

To add to your point, some people have metabolic disorders, neurological problems, emotional or psychological problems, or other physical disabilities. I've trained people with special conditions that could no way do these programs.

So, I agree, one size doesn't fit all. If I believed it did, I would not be a Personal Trainer. However, these programs are, for the most part, one size fits all (with some wiggle room) and if you have a special situation you might be able to get tailored help here. However, people with special conditions such as your food allergy and the ones I listed above should be addressed by experts in the area, not here.

As a scientist, you understand the value of data. There is lots of data that suggest that the problem with obesity in this country (generally speaking) is due to a tipping of the energy balance scale in the wrong direction. We are eating more, and we are less active.

These programs work because they tip the energy balance in the other direction. These programs might not be one size fits all, but it would work for most people if they were willing to put in the effort. Most people are not willing to put in the effort - only a few will actually do the program. I know way more people with unbroken wrappers on their Sculpt 3/4 tapes than I know people that have used it. This might sound harsh, but people need to get honest with themselves about what it really is that is getting in their way of weight loss. In some cases, it might be as simple as their expectations are not reasonable (e.g. a person that has weighed 185 since they were 17 wants to weight 150) and others might be out of their control. It think most people just aren't willing to exercise - that is what I have observed.

So, I am not going to stop making generalizations based on data because it might not fit for all people. If only one person out of the majority reads this message and makes an HONEST assessment about their adherence and decides to really go for it, then it was worth the 21kb it occupies in the database.

One more thing...not all people that are healthy and fit necessarily look ripped. Check out this thread where I posted a picture of the "worlds fittest man".

http://forums.beachbody.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=528299664&f=238299664&m=1982987627&r=3192908727#3192908727

Jim

James -

Caroline told Fitbabe that she's found a way to have her cake and eat it too.

Although I would have prefered a more French quote, something along the lines of Marie Antoinette's "Let them eat cake!"

Fitbabe -- you should know that I ordered "Fatland" off the internet the other day. I may not agree with your diet, but you've at least talked me into giving that book a more thorough read through.

Another great book that rips the lid off the American Diet is "Fast Food Nation." Check it out.

I read Fast Food Nation - interesting read.

Another I enjoyed was The Fat of the Land by Fumento..

Reading is my gift and I do read and read and read.

One thing Critzer (sp) says in Fatland is that HCFS is not metabolized well by the body, thus problems from its usage can result including obesity.

To someone who said I was telling others to eat the way I do based on incomplete information. PLEASE NOTE I said what I was doing was working for me, I did not say it would work for other people or advise them to eat the way I do.

To be honest I am stunned at how well it is working. I think I just gave up the diet mentality and eat what I desire in moderate portions. This eating method is outlined in The Fat Fallacy by William Clower for anyone else interested in trying it.

However the results here at Beachbody speak for themselves. There are at ton of pictures on here of folks following the Michi Ladder and having enormous success!
I am appreciative that I can share the type of success I am having on this forum and that many are open to discussion and not closed off as to what works and what doesnt for different people.

I am now done discussing my diet....
Bring it up again in 6 months and I will share how I am doing.
No more comments from me on this thread despite how much I want to comment..