should i be taking the creatine 6 days per week
10 gms per day if i'm trying to loose weight and gain some lean muscle mass? i'm on day 17 p90 and haven't dropped any wait since i did the fast start
i do sweat 1/2 and sculpt 3/4 and they seem to be working me pretty good

[This message was edited by matt m on 01-29-03 at 05:27 PM.]

Matt,

If you are trying to drop weight--especially if it's substantial weight--I'd suggest a different creatine protocol. Try taking it with 1/2 juice, 1/2 water only after you workout and only 5 grams at a time. Let me know if this helps.

FA-
Tony Horton also said in chat last night not to take creatine if you want to lose a lot of weight but I couldn't bring myself not to take it this morning. I was curious as to how it would impede weight loss. I read one of your earlier posts that it is only effective in giving you the energy to get a few extra reps in a high intensity (failure at 6-10reps) workout. I am on day 28 of Power90 and my results have exceed my expectations 29.5%bf to 26%bf (+ 4.5 lbs LBM and -7.5 lbs fat) My goal is to reach 15%bf or 10%bf if I surpass that goal and to put on 18 lbs of LBM up from my 3 lbs expected. I was willing to reduce my creatine intake if it would help fat loss but I rethought it right now and will only do it if my fat loss slows down. Sorry just getting my thoughts out, I'll just stick to what's working for me. One other thought, I am taking the creatine with a 40-30-30 fruit smoothie, 30min after my workout, and have read your post about quick absorption with grape juice but can't bear to bring myself out of the Zone. I am using the Formula recipes but have modified its portions (3 big meals and 1 snack) to a more Zone like method which breaks several beach body nutrition rules but I tried it both ways and went with what worked for me. I mainly learn by trial and error since everyone has different opinions. I consume 1800 cal/day: 1Block when I wake up (30min prior to workout), 5B Breakfast, 2B Mid-morning snack, 5B lunch, 2B mid-afternoon snack, 4B dinner, and 1B bedtime snack. Anyway my point there was supposed to be that I might be losing weight because I'm not absorbing all the creatine in the first place. Tell me what you think so I can get this off of my mind.

Nice questions posed and nice job. You are so regimented it would be very hard not to have good resutls. Here is a creatine post in the FAQs that should answer most of your questions.

http://forums.beachbody.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=528299664&f=8682956296&m=3242986296

It does not impeed fat loss, far from it. However, it does not at all aid weight loss and will even offset it in some ways. You do hold onto more water weight with creatine (part of the cell volumization to increase CP stores). This is why we don't recommend it for everyone. However, you may offset this because building more muscle and jacking up your metabolism so that you can burn more fat, which is what you are doing. So, while creatine is not for weight loss you can lose weight while on it, espeically if you're really willing to push some iron.

As for absorption, true enough you are not maximizing yours, especially by taking it with fat. I would suggest taking it with some sugary substance (kool aid, juice, endurox, cytomax...) immediately after you finish. If your worried about calories, you don't have to make this mix strong. Then have your shake 30 minutes later.

I would also cycle your creatine. Take it no longer than 90 days and take at least 30 off. 6 on, 4 off seems like a common block, but whatever fits your sched should be fine.

Thanks Steve for the fast reply and detailed explanation. I'm not all that concerned about water retention as long as my results will be better in the long run. I'll try it out for a couple of weeks and see if I feel stronger. Half an hour out of the Zone won't hurt me much but I remember why I hesitated about taking the creatine with the sugary stuff. According toCara Hogue, that insulin rush that causes the rapid uptake of sugar and nutrients will also inhibit the production HGH. Kind of defeats the purpose of taking creatine in the first place. I'll try and write her to see if she'll respond. It is awesome that beachbody gives us access to such qualified personel as yourself.

Here is Cara Hogue's response to my e-mail:

Dear Victor,
Thank you for you kind words. Unfortunately, I have not been convinced of the advantages of creatine at all. I think that to inhibit HGH in order to make it more effective is backwards thinking. I only work with anti-oxidants and Omega 3.
Regards,
cara

Victor Solis wrote:

Cara, I love your articles on Zoneperfect.com and want to thank you for sharing all your knowledge and debunking some outdated fitness mistakes and exercises. You have saved me and a lot of others from needless lower back and shoulder injuries and pain. I am writing you because you seem to be the foremost expert on strength training and the Zone. I am having a discusion on a message board with the fitness advisor from beachbody.com about what is the best way to take creatine. Beachbody sells it in 100% pure crystalized form and recommend to take it with a sugary liquid like grape juice or koolaid in order to maximize absorbancy by using the body's insulin response to make the muscles quickly store the sugar and creatine. I read in your article "Strength Training and the Zone, Part III" that such an insulin response would inhibit HGH production which is why I took the creatine in the first place. I have been adding my creatine to a 40-30-30 fruit smoothie that I am taking 30 minutes after my workout so as not to interfere with the production of HGH. Do you know of a better way to take this supplement. I have summed up my discussion with the beachbody fitness advisor but for more details feel free to look at the message board. http://forums.beachbody.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=528299664&f=338299664&m=8162951496&r=6302945496 Thank you in advance for your time. Victor Solis

ah, the HGH thing. Yes, she has a valid point. However, I'd say the the jury is far more out on the effects of this HGH spike post exercise than the effects of creatine. All you have to do is use human examples of increased performance to validate creatine supplementation, whereas the true effect of the growth hormone spike has remained a unknown for many years.

But, okay, I would agree with her that it's worth attempting to utilize this spike and she is correct in that eating interferes with it. The only exception is when you glycogen stores are fully depleted because it this point you need to quickly replenish to avoid getting too sore.

When this spike was first identified, bodybuilders were taking naps right after exercise because its effects are highest when you're asleep. Therefore, it's probably okay to assume that as sedentary as you can be for 20 minutes post exercise would be optimal. I would then use the same creatine protocol; consume with sugar and wait another 20-30 minutes before eating anything else.

I discussed this dilemma with Tom Platz, the bodybuilder, at a seminar a few years back. He confirmed that there was no real data about the effects of the GH spike but figured the easiest and most well-rounded plan would be to shower after working out, then consume your creatine supp. This should allow at least a 15 minute window for any possible GH benefit, without even thinking about it. So a good plan might be:

workout
5-10 minutes of stretching
shower
creatine
dressed and ready to do whatever is next on your sched
4:1 snack, amended to suit your diet

Here's another non-zone thing, and it's been proven to the point that there is really no doubt (try and find one professional athlete that doesn't follow it). Within one hour post exercise a snack consisting of 4 parts carbs to 1 part protein will increase recovery up to 30% of normal. During this window you absorb nutrients up to 4 times better than at any other time. Now, considering that you just consumed something that was totally carbohydrate I'd say that you can eat closer to zone-ish on the next snack. However, fat slows absorption. Generally this is a good thing but trying to take advantage of this post-exercise window a meal that is 30% fat is going to interfere with this process and reduce its effectiveness.

Another Zone tip: careful about excessive consumption of Zone Perfect bars. These things are tasty treats but each bar contains 4 grams of saturated fat, which is a full 20% of your RDA and doesn't leave a lot of carelessness available to your other meals.

Thanks for the great info. I don't doubt the effectiveness creatine can have. I had the pleasure of meeting the bodybuilders, Laura Crevealle and Chris Aceto at a bodybuilding competition at my college in 1997 (I was a spectator) and they said it was the only supplement with which you could actually feel the difference. I can feel the boost it gives you to get those last reps in. That 4:1 ratio also makes sense with everything else that I've read over the years.

I think natural foods is the way to go, I did very well on a no proccessed food diet last year but it was hard to stick to and eventually got off it. I try to limit my zone bar consumtion to one per day and eat formula recipie snacks with real food as my other snacks. I don't want too consume too many preservatives and other man made stuff. They have glycerin in them to keep them soft. It can't even be classified into one of the macronutrient groups- protein, carbs, or fat.

I'm a huge fan of eating as little processed foods as you can. Sounds like you're really on it. I totally agree with Aceto and Caravealle on creatine and most people tend to agree. Also, check out Cindy and Pixie's Really Hard Program in Slim in 6. During this we had two people use creatine and both finished very strong, while all the others that didn't felt totally hammered. Furthermore, one person took a break and did it again. This time sans creatine. She finished feeling very tired. So I'd say that's a good testament.

Steve

I have learnt loads from reading this thread. Question, using the 6 weeks on 4 weeks off method of using ceratine, would one expect to loose more weight during the 4 weeks off due to less water retention ?

What is 'A Lot of weight to loose.' I was 218 and I want to get to 180, I was 210 after 30 days and a few lbs down from there now. I have been taking 10 grams after work out with Vitamin Water.
I also take the performance Supps.

Thanks

The ultimate weight loss scenario doesn't have much at all to do with creatine. It's how your overall program is going. The bit of water weight that you gain and lose with creatine should remain small and be constant. The results in between (real changes) should not be significantly different. It would stand to reason that you may gain strength faster while taking creatine than during your off cycling but this should not have significant bearing on your body weight, which is more a function of calories burned vs cals consumed.

I think vitamin water only has a few grams of carbs, in which case a splash of juice might help it be absorbed quicker.

I started power 90 a week ago and have been fine with the Sculpting part, (I've been lifting for quite a few years now), and don't think I need it as far as weight lifting goes, (I'm happy in that department). My question is does Creatine help as far as the Cardio side of things go. This is my week spot and I'm looking for the little boost to really help me along.

Tazman

You might want to go click on the link above, which should answer your questions in depth but, no, creatine does not help whatsoever with your aerobic capabilities. It is purely helpful in the anaerobic pathways.

At this point, sound nutrition will help you improve the quickest, meaning that a vitamin supp, like Activit, should be on your list. Performance Formula would be the next on our list of supps you'd want to consider. Also, following this food protocol should help:

Eat a normal meal around 3 hours prior to workout that has plenty of easily digestable carbs. This should ensure that your body's blood glycogen stores are ample at the start of the workout. Don't snack in between, especially in the last hour prior to working out which can rasise insulin levels prior to the workout and interfere so that you use too much blood glycogen during the early stages. Keep a 4:1 carb/protein ratio drink (like Accelerade, Endurox, The Edge, etc) around during your workout. If you start to bonk (feel lethargic) drink this right away and don't wait for your energy to wane. The finish this drink when your done to replenish glycogen stores. Wait more than 30 minutes to eat normally.

Keep in mind that this protocol is for the most efficient way to perform but it's not necessarily the best weight loss scenario. So I would try this until you can hammer right through Sweat. When you can do this I can suggest ways to enhance the Sweat workout around your eating (like doing cardio in the am on a completely empty stomach, since I know there are going to be some people wondering about this).

Great info, thanks for the help!!!!!

I've heard that caffeine will hurt the absorption and effectiveness of creatine.
So, if this is true, is there a particular time you will need to wait to take the creatine so it is effective? Say for instance that you have tea/coffee with a meal, then would working out a couple hours later, followed by the creatine/juice work? When would the caffeine essentially wear off?

Hi Steve,

Sorry I missed your chat but I teach Tuesday nights. I found a great article that refers to other benifits of creatine beyond anaerobic performance by Will Brink. Have you read any of nutrition books he markets from web site: www.brinkzone.com ? They sound promising but I'm doing so well on the diet I'm using that I don't see the reason to spend the money.

yes, caffeine affects absorption due to its acidity. Your protocol sounds fine. I'd give it an hour either side, since both tend to work into your system quickly. Taking your creaing with magnesium, potassium, or sodium will also help buffer stomach acid in increase absorption.